From yacob@apollo.aoe.vt.edu Fri Feb 17 13:18:35 1995 Received: from moose.cs.indiana.edu by whale.cs.indiana.edu (5.65c/9.4jsm) id AA12356; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:18:34 -0500 Received: from apollo.aoe.vt.edu by moose.cs.indiana.edu (5.65c/9.4jsm) id AA03001; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:18:31 -0500 Received: by apollo.aoe.vt.edu (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for ybf2u@curry.edschool.virginia.edu id AA19420; Fri, 17 Feb 95 12:58:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 12:58:15 -0500 From: yacob@apollo.aoe.vt.edu (Daniel Yacob) Message-Id: <9502171758.AA19420@apollo.aoe.vt.edu> To: fisseha@gerbil.cig.mot.com, ybf2u@curry.edschool.virginia.edu Subject: Another View on Punctuation Cc: dmulholl@cs.indiana.edu Status: R My windows in Indiana have been forzen for nearly 10 minutes now, while I was writing this mail. You make recieve half of this from indiana when the windows finally die. Anyway, this is the complete version: selam all, I posted the punctuation question at Dehai's fidel and language forum and this is by far the most thorough response. The writer I have come to view as "the scholar of Dehai", for in general his writing presents him as very well versed on the history and origins of language. I will have to read this a few more times later, the word names people used for punctuations were not familiar to me. I don't know if they are Ge'ez or tgrNa names for the punctuation. Anyway, it is very interesting reading -and a vote for ; < : :-) Though we are still waiting for the yTna vote on presendence. So, yonas & yTna, how are your writings coming along? The disk from abass has yet to arrive :( But, we should get a draft together in the mean time. yTna, please send me any rough draft for a fidel introduction by late sunday night. yonas, please send your draft for the rephrased proposal introduction by then also. I will endeavor to rewrite Appendix A and B as per the last desta table (since we don't seem to be debating character inclusion now), and put it together with your subsissions in html form. Where we can build upon it until the disk arrives. Ok then, I will be expecting your mails. Here is the post: -dan'El >From gasmerom@cabell.vcu.edu Fri Feb 17 12:03:06 1995 Received: from cabell.vcu.edu by apollo.aoe.vt.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for yacob id AA16895; Fri, 17 Feb 95 12:03:06 -0500 Received: by cabell.vcu.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA08389; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:03:04 -0500 Message-Id: <9502171703.AA08389@cabell.vcu.edu> Subject: Re: On Punctuation and Presedence To: yacob (Daniel Yacob) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 12:03:03 EST From: Ghidewon A. Asmerom In-Reply-To: <9502161942.AA07342@apollo.aoe.vt.edu>; from "Daniel Yacob" at Feb 16, 95 2:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0] Status: R selamat Daniel:- > When you read a sentence in tgrNa, or any language written with ge'ez, how do > you view the roles that punctuations play in a sentence? My instinct is to > say the same as the english equivalent, but that is do doubt a result of the > brainwashing. > What is the correct order for the degree that the punctuations give > pause to the flow of a sentence? Though the purpose for some punctuation is for pausing, the degree of pausing is relative to the normal speed of a language. I don't know how secular writing in Ge'z is read, but the Ge'z reading I grew up listening in the churches is read at high speed that whatever pausing there is in Ge'z reading, you can consider it nonpausing as far as Tigrigna or English are concerned. I also don't think punctuation marks are "well-ordered" (an abuse of a mathematical term) :-) > my interpretation is: > > " " < , < ; < : < . [ alternately : < , < ; < :- < :: ] > My friend has the table: > > " " < , < : < ; < . [ alternately : < , < :- < ; < :: ] > Daniel, I think I am with you. Why do I think your ordering makes sense? We use semicolon (;) for Tigrigna's "drb serez" or "neSela serez" when we feel there is a more distinct separation between clauses or items on a list than is indicated by "klte neTbi" ( equivalent to a comma). This is frequently used between two clauses of a compound sentence. On the other hand, "neTbe-serez" (:-) is used to indicate that what follows is an elaboration, or interpretation, etc. of what precedes. Thus, IMO it has the extra call for a pause to pay attention. Of course, "::" is the ultimate full stop. (Why do people prefer the word "period" to full stop? For all the other once are partial stop, but a period is a full pause. Is this one of the many differences between the English English and the English of what used to be their rebelious colony?) In the Dehai standard we don't distinguish between ":" (klte neTbi ) and ",". The role ":" plays in modern Tigrigna writing is equivalent to that of the English comma. The older use of ":" (klte neTbi) was to separate words in hand written documents. This was necessary in the old days because there was a need to save space. After all, most documents were written on a piece of a parchment, that took a lot of effort to make. Even in my school days (which now decades ago), many of our parents had hard time securing us a note book for every subject we took, thus we had learned to economize. We were writing small and our words were very close to each other. As a result, ":" had a definite use. As paper became cheaper and widely available and hand written documents got replaced by typed documents, there was no more need of cluttering the writing by adding ":". Hence, even as early as the 1940s a team of Tigrigna educators lead by Memhr Yisaq Tewoldemedhin decided to upgrade ":" to take the place of "neSela serez". This essentialy is equivalent to the role what "," plays in the English language. The role of "neSela serez" now is identical to that of "drb serez". In fact, the latter is rarely used. Both punctuation marks play the same role the ";" plays in English. However, this doesn't mean there are no people who give these punctuation marks the additional role of playing the role of ": " (colon) in English. The modern trend is also to give the role of the English colon to ":-" (neTbe-serez). This is at least what the RICE's EPLF Tigrigna-English Dictionary uses. > -- daniel Ghidewon